Curse

the_jos · Dec 08, 2009, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

The funny thing about Fort Aspenwood is that if Kurzicks all went Monk Prot/Heal and/or Ritualist Heal then they'd probably win almost every time.

You have 3 lines of defense, 4 heal / prots on each side could easily suck minutes at each line of defense if Luxons even got past the outer gates.

I don't think so (given turtle blocking is fixed).

Assume the 'random' format of FA is broken so that all Kurzicks will bring monks.
This would mean the 'random' part of Luxon would also change to non-random and bring far more specialized offensive builds with caster hate to the area.

I am sure the balance will slightly more tip in favor of Kurzick, but not as in 'win almost every time'.
Monks/Rits would not be able to use enchantments as prots, both turtle attacks and players will take care of those. So it's straight heals and non-enchantment protection. Amber running will not be done since every Luxon player's bar is filled with monk-hate. Meaning a breached gate is a breached gate. In case of heavy enchantment protection of npc's expect some Luxon to blow themselfs near the npc's to create a nice Well of Profane.
Hexes will be flying around meaning it will be hard to counter all of them, including the 'reduced healing', 'target cannot block' or the 'hurt person who casts heal' ones.
Also expect daze to be a condition that will be there. Together with pressure and cover conditions.

Then we have the situation where the number of attackers will not only include 8 human players, but also two turtles and npc 8 warriors (since Kurz cannot kill those because they are all healing).
This is something that should not be forgotten, as long as gates are breached Luxon have more than double the number of 'players' in the field.

I doubt many 'all monk' teams could handle that.

upier · Dec 09, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Andicus

My suggestion for either side would be to bring a character thats fun to play but can still be useful for the team.
You can take pretty much any class and come up with something that will be constructive to do. In some cases you only even need to devote one or 2 skills to it.

It also depends what side you are on as to what is constructive.
RoJ monks are a great choice for luxon side. They are an epic fail for kurzick side (same applies to most aoe for kurzicks).

My personal favorites:
Kurzick
Healers Boon monk
Toxic chill necro with Life/Recuperation and some corpse exploitation
Power block mesmer with empathy - shuts down any ele's/necros and hurts melee
Burning arrow ranger
Command Para ("fallback"/"syg" etc) + holy spear for minions

Luxon
MM Necro using soul reaping to spam sheild of regen. (+ gaze of contempt and Well of Profane for opportune moments)
Any other death necro with Well of Profane.
Fire ele(+ gaze of contempt)
ZB monk(+ gaze of contempt)
Havn't tried the RoJ/Healing hybrid yet, but looks fun and effective.

First of all - HB monk?
So the idea is to outheal potentially 8 players plus two turtles dealing damage? The ele will be spiked down as you'll be recovering from the aftercast.

Second of all - the problem with advocating options other than a monk is that you need to ask yourself if those options are superior to the monk when nobody else in your team is a monk.
And they are not.
Because of the random format you WILL end up with some non-monk players since those options are much more appealing than healing NPCs.
And those players will provide sufficient offence. I mean, they just need to get in the way.

And if you do end up with 8 monks - then I suggest that two or 3 go out and tank the turtles. Use the teleporter, tele in the middle of the Luxon mob and just keep getting killed over and over and over again by the Luxon. The main idea is to just distract them and prevent some damage form hitting the ele.

On the subject of Profane, if we see massive use of it - then corpse exploitation skills will become mandatory for the Kurzick. I mean Profane still has a 3 sec cast time compared to Consume Corpse's and Well Of Blood's 1 sec cast time.

Xenomortis · Dec 09, 2009, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

On the subject of Profane, if we see massive use of it - then corpse exploitation skills will become mandatory for the Kurzick. I mean Profane still has a 3 sec cast time compared to Consume Corpse's and Well Of Blood's 1 sec cast time.

It is certainly not the "screw over the Kurzicks" skill we all wish it was.
Getting a person to die around other people and where other people will want to go is fairly difficult.
It also requires 5 or more in Death Magic, but that's usually trivial.

Rend or Pain of Disenchantment is usually sufficient. Of course when against 8 monks, you'd want something stronger.

Celeborn10 · Dec 09, 2009, 07:22 PM // 19:22

A tip for playing ranger with the first "glitch" spot (I consider it a perch):

When [the turtle] winds up for the shot move. Normally ranger armor by itself reduces the 300 damage by roughly 50%. Moving further from the epicenter can further reduce that to about 50 damage.

When I monk usually comes down to a decision between keeping the Juggernaut vs. the ele alive at Green. I like to keep the Jugg alive when facing a caster-based team and prefer the Ele when there's a mass of physicals. The only thing I really dislike about the Juggernaut is its ability to be lured away from the gate which creates a dependency upon your team to defend yourself as opposed to relying upon the Green Gate with the Ele.

Copenhagen Master · Dec 09, 2009, 08:08 PM // 20:08

FA is crap play JQ hahahaha Luxon suck there

zelgadissan · Dec 09, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

There's a big difference between Luxon sucking and Luxon having to deal with half their team being leech bots that Anet refuses to ban even when constantly reported. JQ is simply unplayable for normal Luxon.

Premium Unleaded · Dec 09, 2009, 10:24 PM // 22:24

I'd say JQ is simply unplayable in general when it often takes like 20 mins to get into a game.

refer · Dec 09, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

[QUOTE=Celeborn10;4971705]A tip for playing ranger with the first "glitch" spot (I consider it a perch):

When [the turtle] winds up for the shot move. Normally ranger armor by itself reduces the 300 damage by roughly 50%. Moving further from the epicenter can further reduce that to about 50 damage.[/move]

I discovered this too but not on Ranger. Not sure why it reduces damage when you move though.

Killamus · Dec 10, 2009, 02:11 AM // 02:11

[QUOTE=refer;4971985]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeborn10

I discovered this too but not on Ranger. Not sure why it reduces damage when you move though.

The exact same reason as to why arrows will miss if someone moves. The turtle's attack is a projectile, if you move, it'll miss. However, it acts like Wurm Seige, and will damage people around the attacking target too, but to a lesser degree (I.E. the guy getting hit will take 80 damage, but someone adjacent to him might take 40)

Think about it like a cannon ball. If you get hit with it, you're dead. But if you dodge it, you're still going to get hurt from the debris spray, although not nearly as much.

vader · Mar 06, 2010, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Here's a big tip for the Kurzicks ...

Put pressure on (and kill) the Monks escorting the turtles! Its ridiculous to see 2 or 3 Kurzicks constantly attacking a turtle with a Luxon monk 2 feet away constantly healing it. Then, when you do finally get someone to attack the monk, they get them down to about 1/4 health and then move on to another target because the monk runs away. Really? Chase him down and finish the job! He's just going to come back and start healing the turtle again.

Martin Alvito · Mar 06, 2010, 04:34 PM // 16:34

If you feel the need to play FA as a Luxon, you should bear in mind what upier is saying as you decide what to bring. At the end of the day, the prot monks are the real threat. Turtles are nice, and they make life a lot easier. But you can still overwhelm the Kurzicks without them if you can power through their prots and kill NPCs.

A prot monk has three key weaknesses. First, it's limited in the amount of damage it can mitigate at any given time. Second, it's limited to protecting single targets unless it bonds (in which case it isn't good for much other than protecting NPCs). Third, it's enchantment based.

If you want to beat a prot monk, you need to be able to deal out more damage than it can handle. That implies good builds and coordination, which is the real reason that the Kurzicks dominate the arena. The arena's objectives would be stacked in favor of the Luxons if the teams were constructed and coordinated, rather than random.

I find that the single most effective thing you can do as a Luxon is suicide bomb NPCs with a fire Ele. But you have to be built properly for the task. You want to be able to pump out large packets of damage in short periods of time. That means stacking lots of damage packets that land more or less simultaneously.

You'll want Glyph of Sacrifice, Meteor Shower and Phoenix. You'll want Flame Djinn's Haste as a run buff and finishing skill. Beyond that it's pretty negotiable. I usually take Savannah Heat so that I can get a major packet stack with Meteor Shower and have something to use Glyph of Sacrifice on when Meteor Shower is down. I usually take Flame Burst and Liquid Flame for additional finishers. But there are arguments for other skills, including Pain of Disenchant.

The important thing to understand about playing the bar is that you don't need energy regeneration skills. You want to unload your arsenal and die. The short res timer means that you can return for another strike just as quickly as you could regenerate the energy you burned. You also will want +15/-1 batteries.

The old Mantra of Resolve was usually better than enchant rips. Not getting interrupted generally put out more damage than ripping Prot Spirit. Now, I'm not so sure. A chain takes longer than five seconds to unload, but you're at least able to protect the key skills in a chain with it.

MM Necros are nice, but the advantage of bringing an army to bear is generally outweighed by the inability to quickly launch deep strikes on distant NPCs.

The main issue that you'll face as a Luxon is that you'll need to coordinate a bunch of bad players in order to win. That's not to say that everyone on your team will be terrible. But most of them will, and it will tax your skills as a diplomat to get players that don't understand the arena to advance when you need to advance, fall back on runners when that needs to happen, and coordinate their actions.

You can get around that problem by syncing; all you really need is about three players total on your team that bring quality bars and can agree to work together. If you don't have that, it doesn't really matter what you bring or what you do. You can usually collect the bonuses for dropping all of the gates all by yourself. But it isn't a great faction farm unless you can make matches end early by dropping Gunther.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 06, 2010, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Defensive spirits and Soul Twisting are really good. If you're a Ritualist, consider running it. You'll probably be the only guy doing so and even if you aren't, the map's big enough that you can just avoid the other guy - or if you have good coordination, you can both work together.

Deakon · Mar 06, 2010, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Shouldn't this be under The Campfire?

Martin Alvito · Mar 06, 2010, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

Shouldn't this be under The Campfire?

No. It probably should be in Gladiator's Arena.

But since the thread discusses the current event weekend, I don't see the harm in letting the thread stay here through Sunday and then archiving it where it belongs.

imnotyourmother · Mar 09, 2010, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Look the Lux can not win if the turtles are DEAD. so.. Kill the darn turtles or just block them to hold them up.

If there are two turtles at the end all smashing away in green your going to loose. That is 2 enchants that are gone every 20 seconds or so.

I can remember dying and getting res'd and then going out the portal only to get one step before BOTH turtles killed me with an attack. I was like that is stupid. So I yelled at the team.. KILL THE TURTLES!! KILL THE TURTLES!!!

Nothing... just everyone running around.

3 minutes later.. it was all over cause both turtles killed the NPC's in Green cause your enchants on them are crap as you can not get enough enchants on them and heal yourself in time cause you need 1) heal your own ass, and then put 4 enchants on the npc before they let that cannon blast go again.

So two turtles at green = FAIL

Kopa The Demon King · Mar 09, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30

LAST THING WE NEED is a monk metabuild to get nerfed, and make monks even less of a wanted option above Rit and necro healers >__>

NOT TO MENTION why the hell do we need to turn FA into Hall of heros? I dont like the bullshit Hey you're not running this wiki build RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO you and reported...It happens I get reported for running a W/Mo combo in pvp, even when im going full warior in skillbar. they dont give a crap.

This will just end up turning literaly one of the ONLY fun NON WIKI ORIENTATED pvp areas into bullshit. Turn off the metagameing crap. two prot/heals monks are all we need. Me/Mo smites are helpfull and Mesmer shutdowns, and ranger interupts still rock most of the luxon side.

JQ is already wiki heavy in bombs, no need for another.

Gun Pierson · Mar 09, 2010, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Ah Upier...we've been here before

I do however like some of your tips as I have a pve friend who wants to become better at monking and I suggested to try fun PvP , especially FA as Kurzick. So thanks, I can now direct her to this thread, which will safe me time explaining it all.

@ Martin Alvito: Constructive posting as usual, I like that about you.

EDIT: like Kopa above indicates, I hope that FA stays casual PvP and doesn't turn into 'serious' meta somehow.

Martin Alvito · Mar 10, 2010, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by imnotyourmother

Look the Lux can not win if the turtles are DEAD. so.. Kill the darn turtles or just block them to hold them up.

If there are two turtles at the end all smashing away in green your going to loose. That is 2 enchants that are gone every 20 seconds or so.

While two turtles sieging you is a guaranteed loss for the Kurzicks, having turtles sieging away is not a necessary condition for Luxon victory. I've won numerous matches below 50% long before the turtles had any hope of getting into position. When they do get into position, it's the incompetence of the Kurzicks that was decisive, and not the turtles. Luxon players should realize that the turtles are worthless, except as a diversion. The turtles do not help you win battles that you would not otherwise have won by playing properly and crashing Green early on.

Also, I should note that I made some changes to cope with the Resolve nerf. The big change was the removal of Glyph of Sacrifice and Meteor Shower. Arcane Echo => Savannah => Resolve => Savannah will clear out anything but a Juggernaut and Gunther. That leaves you vulnerable to pesky Rangers and Mesmers, but it does protect you from NPC Mesmers. Note that going up the left (Orange) side is infinitely faster for a fire nuker, though.

Painbringer · Mar 10, 2010, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

While two turtles sieging you is a guaranteed loss for the Kurzicks, having turtles sieging away is not a necessary condition for Luxon victory. I've won numerous matches below 50% long before the turtles had any hope of getting into position. When they do get into position, it's the incompetence of the Kurzicks that was decisive, and not the turtles. Luxon players should realize that the turtles are worthless, except as a diversion. The turtles do not help you win battles that you would not otherwise have won by playing properly and crashing Green early on.

True most wins I see without turtles help are from some excited kurzick running amber through green at a bad time. Believe me if you let my sin in one of the gate keepers will fall maybe two. And we all know what happens next if a solo opponent gets in? Well the Calvary comes running in to stop him. One by one players come charging in to the rescue which opens green again or pulls support away from green leaving them helpless for the rest of the luxon team to destroy and then follow me in. So here is some advice… do not open green at all

I can dash by the gate guards every time.

Phineas · Mar 10, 2010, 05:05 PM // 17:05

If the map were to be played by 2 opposing and competent guilds, instead of 16 random people (synching aside), should the result always be a Kurzick victory? I would think so, more often than not, given that there is only 1 victory condition and no chance of a draw.

The format of FA only requires there to be uninformed Kurzick players for the outcome to be anything other than a blue victory. In theory, only a Luxon team composed of 8 uninformed players cannot beat a Kurzick side with 1 uninformed player who makes the critical mistakes.

This is one reason the format should not be taken too seriously (people complaining in the outpost of ZCombat noobs causing defeats) as it's just a fun way of getting into PvP that should encourage the newcomer to participate. And with these newcomers comes the uncertainty of an otherwise predictable result.